Episode 184: Tim Hughes: Social selling is not about selling

HIGHLIGHTS

Will: Hello Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim: Thanks, Will. Really excited to be here. Thanks for asking me on.

Will: Tim. Let’s just start with the first question. What is social selling?

Tim: Well, I can tell you, first of all I’ll tell you what it’s not, which it’s not going on social and selling. Nobody gets up in the morning and says, “The first thing I need to do is talk to a manipulative salesperson.” If you want to get involved in social and be successful in it, the best thing to do is not sell. That doesn’t mean that once you get a meeting that you don’t do what you’ve always done, but you’ll be even more successful if you don’t start selling on social. It’s a mechanism that allows you to get your meeting.

To answer your question, what is social selling? Social selling is really the reaction that sales people like myself needing to use as a mechanism to the change in the way that people buy. You go back 20 years, what happened is somebody would bring up a company, and they’d say, “Can you send me a brochure.” Hopefully, a brochure would turn up in the mail three days later.

Now, we have access to the internet, we have access to social media, and we can do that through our mobile devices. What happens is, we can be sitting in a cafe on a Saturday afternoon, and we say we want to buy something, and we just go online, and we just see if we can buy it. That’s something that we have never been able to do, as far as before. It’s by as we are empowered to do that and what we have to do with sellers is react to change to the way that people are buying.

Will: I really liked that point in your book Social Selling, which I really enjoyed where you talked about how this world of selling is different, where it used to be that it was all about trying to crack into the C-suite and get a meeting. Now, it’s often the sea level is pushing it down and asking more junior people to find out and research the thing, what they want to buy. Then, those people are going on the internet and searching are going on, even their social to ask their network, what’s the best ERP system or whatever. It’s kind of that whole world is shifting.

Tim: Will, what we’re seeing is that, yes the people are empowered to go out and get that information. People who are actively going and looking for your products and service, and they’re doing it right now, and you don’t know about it. What you need to go do as an individual or as individuals that make up companies is to make sure that you’re there, you’re active, and you have the content that people are looking for, and you have the activity that people are looking for. Because, at the end of the day, well I’m not saying is that the sales person is dead far from it. I work in the business to business space and in B2B are people are looking for experts to help them.

Now, we know that we’re probably going to have to deal with the sales person, but we’re looking for somebody that we can trust that can guide us. We’ve all been ripped off by sales people in the past and what we’re not looking for is that person that’s going to manipulate us into making the decision we want. We have the opportunity to get the information early on. A friend of mine runs a baby massage company, and they get a lot of inbound around about three, four o’clock in the morning. When parents are basically trying to get this kid to sleep, and they’re going along the line, and they’re something. You can see enterprise, and you can sympathize with that, but what they’re not doing is they’re going out and going, “Hey, what do you need is a baby massage.” Because, immediately we would actually rebel against that and pulled back.

What we’re doing is putting out articles, same things at the top 10 ways that you can get your baby to sleep. Of course, one of those things there is about maybe massage. It’s not, when I say down south it’s a more subtle approach. As a buyer when looking for information, when you’re looking for validation, whenever we buy stuff, even if we go on holiday, we’ll search what are the top 10 beaches in the Mediterranean. We’re always looking for information either through Google or through social or going to our friends and family and asking those questions. It’s really about being clever as a seller and market is to make sure that we there in the right place at the right time. At the end of the day, a lot of this is about serendipity. I’m making sure that you are there in the right place.

Will: Fantastic. Let’s get really practical Tim, and talk through a couple of case examples and maybe we could start with one that’s, you’re very real for me right now. I’ve offered to a friend of mine, from business school to give us some advice or talk them through. He’s got an MBA and he works at a finance firm that gives loans to small, medium size businesses. He’s mostly trying to get awareness with chief financial officers and get on their radar. It’s hard to know from the outside in what business actually might need that kind of loan that they offer.

He’s trying to connect to them, and currently we’ll do an outreach, connection requests, let’s say that says, “Hey, if you need a loan, well we got loans.” Maybe only 1% will accept. Well, lets talk through a whole approach that he might use. How would you do a connection requests to people? Should we just try to follow them? Should you comment on their stuff you like? In terms of posting. Let’s talk, start with maybe connection request if that’s the right place or maybe you tell me where to start.

Tim: There’s three elements that you need to be good on social. First and foremost is you need a personal brand. A personal brand sounds like something unachievable, actually everybody can have a personal brand. If you look at most people’s LinkedIn profiles, they’re pretty atrocious, they’re usually online CVs, and it’s not about that anymore. In fact, recruitment consultants and that will now tell you, they actually think you’re a bit old fashioned if you’ve gone online CV, what they’re looking for people with personal brands. First and foremost, if you think about your, your LinkedIn profile, you have a summary title at the top and then you have a summary thing. This is not about what you do.

Anybody who sends me a LinkedIn request, and I am more than happy to accept LinkedIn requests and connect with people that listen to this. There’ll be certain things I would first and foremost in your LinkedIn profile. This is at the top is not what you do is why you do it. What I’m looking for is your individual. If you want an example, come and look at me. Everybody in my company, Digital Leadership Associates is a high water mark in terms of social, we practice what we preach. The summary title is, is about your why, not your what. It needs to be intriguing. It needs to come pull me in and go, I want to look at this person and want to read it. If it says, sales manager at careful out speakers, I’m not interested. Because, if you go on and look for sales manager, I think there’s something like 2.5 million or something on Linkedin. So, you’re not differentiating yourself.

Will: On that, I want to ask about that. Some advice that I’ve heard on the title like on your headline is, I agree not to put, just put your title and company because that’s sort of boring, but maybe to use a fishing line, which is a term I picked up from David A. Fields. For you, Lab Beaker Company in your example there. It might be something like, “We help lab managers reduce breakage of lab equipment and reduce costs or something like that.” That’s more of we help academic labs like reduced cost and something like that. I think, you’re saying, “No, even that’s kind of lame.”

Tim: That was good advice in about 2015, that’s what everybody was doing in social selling in 2015. Now that basically says, I’m your sales man, and I want to sell you something. It says, you went on a social selling course back even four years ago. This very much is about your … again, that what you’re saying there is your what, not your why. As a buyer, I don’t care about your company, I don’t care about your products, I don’t care about your services. I’ve got my own problems, I’m going to take the kids to football. I’ve got my family coming at the weekend. I’ve got to go to the store and buy some food. There’s a whole load of things in my life, and the last thing I need is you come in and try to sell me something.

What do you need to do is put yourself in your buyer’s shoes and go, if you’re going to put a sign of that says I’m a salesman. Then for example, if you have that, I won’t connect to you because I know what’s going to happen next. Soon as I connect to you, you’re going to send me a list of your products and services. At which point I’ll just block you. This is very much about, your summary title is your why, make it intriguing. Mine is, I should’ve played Quidditch for England.

Will: I love that. That really gets your attention.

Tim: It gets your attention. I’ve had loads of people going to say, now the thing is, when you’ve got to remember also is some people may have said, “That was rubbish, we didn’t want that.” But, that’s fine. Now, what I’ve done is I’ve actually qualified you’re out. If you didn’t like that, you’ll never going to like me. One of the things that you can do is, one of the things that you can’t do with social is you waste your time, with social you don’t waste your time. It’s far more efficient and far more effective.

In the past, what we would have done is driven for two hours, had a one hour meeting with somebody, driven back for two hours, spent the whole of the day wasted five hours actually finding out that we didn’t like that person, they would never going to buy from them. What we’ll do with our LinkedIn profiles is read all that out before it actually gets to us, which is one of the ways that make social far more efficient and effective than legacy sales methods. Your summary title is your why, you don’t have a summary at the top. Again, it’s your why, not what you do. There’s plenty of room for what you do down below, but because we don’t like salespeople and because we avoid them, the less you can be salesy, the more authentic you are the better it is.

My business partner Adam Gray recently shared a video of a film where, the person basically has to step out as if he’s stepping over a cliff. Actually, there’s a pathway, but you can’t see and what you find with being authentic it’s a bit like that, as you step out, you’re scared to do it. But actually, the more authentic you are, the more that you actually draw people in. It’s a psychological thing and this is about, and socialists, but a lot of it is about using psychological psychology more than actually facts and figures.

In terms of your work history, my advice is you start from the bottom, and you work out. This is not about you had certain objectives or that this is about what you learned. Again, people can come and have a look at my LinkedIn profile and have a read. There is a history of I did this job, I’ve learned this, I did this job buggers rubbish at this. But, when I went to do this, I learned something. I learned about doing this and this is where I learned how this was better at doing this. I went here, we always have jobs that didn’t work out, but what I learned was this. What you’re doing is, you’re putting out there this authentic view of the person, and the person who should look at that and go, “sure enough, I want to meet this person.”

The second thing you need is to have networks, not connections. I get a lot of people sending me connection across and why I want them to do is say, “I heard you on Will’s podcast, I really enjoyed what you saying, can we connect?” Of course, we can. What you’re doing when you send out connection requests don’t sell. You connect the person, the best thing that we found is to look at a person’s profile, and you find two pieces of information that you find similar. For example, in the days when we’ve been to networking events, we don’t just turn up, open the door and shout, “Hey, it’s Tim Hughes. I’ve got a special offer today. It’s 30% of what … ” Those people will just call security, and you’d be taken away.

What you do is you go and get a cup of coffee, you go up to somebody and say, “Have you traveled far? What, do you come from there? Wow. I went to school there.” What you do because we are social animals is that we try and find a connection with people. The more connections that we find with people, the more that we trust them. You look at someone’s profile, and you go, “We went to the same school together. Or I like the way that you say this about your profile or your background.” You just connect with them, and don’t try and sell to them. I’ll come back to the sending the messages in the moment.

The third thing that you need, which is what we will be looking for as a buyer is your expertise. The ways that you can demonstrate your expertise is by sharing content. So, that could be curating content using a product like Flipboard, which I use, which is free. You download that to your mobile, and you look for articles that could be interesting for our audience and also writing out articles as well. We teach all of ourselves people to blog. What we found is that it’s interesting because in the states, everyone told us you’d never get salespeople to blog and actually we do. Actually, the sales people are actually taking a lot of money from it and are getting a big return from it.

All the way through the sales process, this isn’t just a demand generation thing. It works all the way through the process because you can actually accelerate the pipeline and the buying process through the use of content, which is a subject for another day. I know all of the salespeople in all the organizations that we’ve gone, and we’ve transformed them. We’ve transformed and given a social selling prospecting methodology. They’ve all gone and done some amazing things and got some amazing revenue. Those are the three things, personal brand-

Will: Say a little bit more about the Flipboard.

Tim: Having network, and then the content. Sorry Will, what’d you say?

Will: I’m sorry, I interrupted you when you were doing a summary. Could you say a little bit more about the Flipboard. How does that work?

Tim: Flipboard is a free app, which people put content in. What you can do is you can go into that, you can download it to your mobile, it’s free, and you can start searching. You could search on rock music or search on Fintech or Blockchain or web subjects that you want. You’ll find content in that. You don’t necessarily need to write content though if you do, you’ll come across as more of an expert than if you don’t.

Will: That’s a tool for finding content that then you could share on LinkedIn?

Tim: Yes.

Will: That’s the idea.

Tim: Yes, yes. We recommend you should post once a day on LinkedIn, and don’t just post the piece of content, post your some contextual piece around it. Really interesting information on how using Blockchain within the blockchain market. Do you think it will ever blockchain will transform the way that we buy houses? If you ask a question, you’re far more likely to get engagement rather than posting something, which is probably just going to be seen as broadcast. But putting your context around it, showing you that you understand the subject, and again that’s demonstrating your expertise.

Will: Tim, seems to me there’s maybe three tiers of good, better, best in terms of headlines. The lowest tier would be saying, “I’m the sales manager at the Lab Beaker Company.” It’s kind of boring. Level two might at least be the 2015 recommendation is to don’t just say your role, but say can what it is you do, which says something like, “I help, or we help lab managers reduce total cost of ownership of their lab equipment.” Then if you’re a lab manager you see that say, “Well, that’s relevant to me. Let me see what these guys do.” Tier one you’re saying I think is, you’ve already kind of the, “I should’ve played Quidditch for England is already taken.” What would some examples be of what a really great, tier one headline would be?

Tim: In terms of, first thing your third one there’s room for your job title further down in Linkedin in terms of where your job is in your job description. The second one you described, I can assure you, no one would be interested in that because they just think that you’re going to sell them something. The thing about your summary title is, is it so important? You can’t template this, and you can’t …I know there’s people that will write people’s LinkedIn profiles, but that doesn’t get to change. What we’re looking for here with social selling is a mindset change, and the habits change. If people don’t go through the thought process and actually have the thought process and change themselves, you don’t see change, culture change, and people change within the business. What you have are people with profiles written on LinkedIn, what you don’t have is change people.

You can’t template this, and doing these summary titles is actually really difficult because what we don’t want our people, because the first thing that people do is that they immediately right in this business jargon that none of us understand. Which is, I’m a tenacious, energetic sales person, great at building relationships. Well, I’m a tenacious sales individuals is great building relationships and so is every other sales person. By writing that you immediately merge into the other 60 million people on LinkedIn. What we’re looking for is originality. What we’re looking for is your humanity. What we’re looking for is you as an individual because actually you are the best person there is and what we’re looking for or what you’re hoping for is the buyer is going to choose you, not everybody else. What we do when we buy things now is we’re looking for humans, we’re not looking for corporate robots.

Coming up with this summary title is actually really difficult, and it requires people to look in themselves and come up with something very subtle authentic about their why? Why did you get up in the morning? Is it your family? Is it because you run marathons? Is it because you like driving cars? What is it that’s about you? How can I actually see something in you. I use the term about, if I met you in a bar, would I enjoy talking to you?

Now, I’m not saying that you have to, this is about drinking alcohol. This is about trying to see that person, and you giving a three dimensional view in something like eight words, and that’s really, really, really hard. What we’re looking for are in social, it’s people to go through the process of actually them actually thinking about that. As they do that and when they come out the other side, you’ll see different people. This is where we see the transformation in the people, and the culture taking place.

Will: Okay.

Tim: Does that make sense?

Will: It does. It does. You’re getting me to rethink my own title here. In the summary section then, I love your pointers around talking about what you learned in each of your roles. I’ve been recommending to people, sometimes it’s like blank, it just says I was an engagement manager at McKinsey and then nothing. At least, I tell people in the past list out the projects that you did, list out that your focus areas. “I was focused on procurement, or I did lean operations.” I think, yours is definitely step up to focus on more what you learned there. In the key part of the summary section, how do you recommend approaching that first person? Do you write it in third person? Do you lead off with who you serve or how do you most effectively use that summary section? Particularly, the first three sentences, which is all people see unless they click to open it.

Tim: The first thing is, to write in the first person. You should actually be, they’re quite often in English in the UK, we’re told not to use the word I in grammar. But, here actually what we’re looking for is I do this, I did this, I feel this. What we’re looking, and what we should be doing is that we should be using very simplistic language. The language that we learned when we were children. I love this. I helped this, not I assist this, because this language that we’ve learned in business is meaningless. If you fill your … I was looking at some LinkedIn profiles where the people have just filled it with jargon, and it’s complete. I haven’t got a clue what they’re talking about, and it’s completely meaningless. They’ve wasted their time in actually writing this out, and they think I should be impressed. I’m not, I think they’re an idiot for doing it.

What I’m looking for is actually not here, what is it that you’re … how are you going to help me? Why are you passionate about work? Remember, you are the collective experience of everything that you’ve done to date. That is your collective experience, and that makes you different from everybody else because everybody else is collective experience is different. One of the things that companies miss is that every single product now is the same. Every single corporate messages is the same, we’re number one, we’re market leaders or they use internal jargon. Like if you use the thing accountancy. I worked for a company that said that they sold ERP systems. Nobody knows what the ERP system is. What we know is if it’s accounting or bookkeeping or things like that.

We need to get away from using this corporate jargon and corporates do all the time, and they create this content, which is in effect sales pitch or in adverts. We know it is, they know it is, we’ll just ignore it and they don’t understand that we ignore it. What corporates don’t understand is that, the single unique thing that you have right now is the collective experiences of all their employees. Their employees are all different. Their employers are the thing that differentiates them from all of their other competition.

The same is this in terms of your colleague, he or she has an experience. They have an MBA, that’s great. They have an experience that is different from everybody else and what we need to be doing with leaders is empowering those people to talk about that experience in an authentic way on social. That’s the thing that would change organizations and change businesses and enable them to grow and get the revenue, and the profit they need in that what is nearly the second decade of the 21st century.

Will: Okay, great. We’ve talked through personal brand is really educated me there, and probably I’m going to take a shot at updating my profile, talked about networks and expertise. Let’s go back to that example I suggested where, someone who does have a job to do of reaching out to build connections with chief financial officers let’s say. Let’s say legitimately the person, they’re offered, let’s say it is a good product or service. Some CFO out there would really need and love to know about, how would you suggest that, that person do connection requests and what do you do after that? How do you start trying to make people aware of what you do?

Tim: Well, first thing that you do with that you would, there’s a number of ways that you can get people aware of you. First thing you can do is go look at someone’s profile. You could go and like maybe something that they’re doing. You can go and comment on something that they’re doing. All of these things then allow you to get views of your profile. Now, if you haven’t created your personal brand, you’ll look like a spammer. We had a client that they came to us and said, “We sent out 250 connection requests to supply chain directors and nobody connected.” We said, “Of course not.” They were like, “Why not? We looked like spam or why would they connect.” Which is, there’s no shortcuts here. This is about if you don’t have a personal brand, if you’re not creating content and serving up content and looking interesting, you can send as many connections with crest as you want, but you’ll get a very low return on it.

First and foremost, is you have a personal brand. You are sharing good content, you’re writing good content. They’ll want to connect with you, if you’re doing that. The second thing that you do is you like, and you comment on people’s stuff. They look at your profile. They’ll actually, I’ll just I say, probably wants to connect. I get people that want to connect with me because they look at my profile. “This looks like a good guy. I’d like to have this person in my network.” That’s the trick. The thing is then, if you’re connecting well, if you’re liking or commenting, then the person hopefully will comment back, and you then have a new start having a discussion.

It’s a bit like when you go into a networking events, and you go, “Hi.” You want somebody go, “Hi, how are you doing? Where’d you come from? Have you traveled far? Isn’t the weather wonderful at the moment?” Those sorts of questions that you would ask. What you do is, you have a conversation with an individual and then at some point you say, “It sounds like we actually, we have similar ideas or we have got several experiences, why don’t we connect?” At that point, you shouldn’t then pitch them. The social network is not the place to sell. The social network gets you the meeting. If you sell on social network, you will find yourself blocked or you …

I’ve had salespeople that have said they’ve done all that right things. They’ve got the personal brands. They’re producing great content. They’re sharing stuff. They look fantastic. They’re getting big organizations coming to them saying, “That sounds really interesting and can we talk for further?” There’s no sales trick that you do with people where you go. “Well yeah, we could meet next Tuesday or can we meet next Wednesday?” At that moment they spot that you’re a salesman, they’ll back off. Social network is not about selling, you sell when you get the meeting.

Will: How do you make that conversion where you’ve liked someone’s content, you’ve commented on it, they connect with you, and then how do you go from that to getting a meeting with that person?

Tim: If you’re driving people to your profile, you’ve got a great profile, you’ve got great content, you’ll actually find people come to you. We get three pieces of inbound every single day in our business. We get people coming to us and saying, “We want to buy.” If you’re doing the right things, and you’re doing what I’m saying that you should do, you will find that you will get inbound. If you connect with people, just don’t push stuff that, I connect with people and then you leave them and then you nurture them with good concepts.

In the past, if you think about sales, if you could call someone, you’ll get four different responses. You’ll get go away, you’ll get, that’s interesting, but I bought it three months ago. You’ll get, that’s interesting, but I’m not interested for another six months. The final thing is, wow, you’ve just caught me at the right time. Where do I sign now? The fourth one, which is where do I sign? Is actually very, very small and infrequent. What you’re not expecting when you’ve made cold calls in the past, is that everybody that you phone up will buy because they just don’t do that.

The same as on a social network. Everybody that you connect to doesn’t buy. What you’re able to do with the social network is you’re able to find the people that are more likely to buy faster, which again, is a way that you get the efficiency gains. Then, you connect with the people, and it’s highly likely that they will actually, the people that you connect with is will turn around and say, “Can I buy from you?” Thomson Reuters, which is one of our clients, we’d be teaching them how to social sell. They did the personal branding. They started building the network. They had a person from Microsoft that they’d been ringing up for six months, couldn’t get through because there’s all the usual gatekeepers and all the usual blockers. What happened was, they connected to the person on a LinkedIn person from Microsoft. We looked at this salesperson profile and actually wrote back, you are just the person that I need to speak to right now. Can you come and see me? And that turned into a significant, a deal.

Now, what happens and what happens in social is yes, you can do outbound prospecting in terms of connecting to people, where you have to have the position in the right. Remember, that you need to have all of the content, that personal brand and the stronger the network that you have, the better because more people can see you. If you’ve got 2000 connections, only 2000 people can see you. If you’ve got 5,000 connections, that’s 5,000 people that can see that the content and what you’re sharing. What you’ll find is that, the better that you become at this, and the better that you are, the more authentic you’ll find that people come to you rather than you having to go out to them.

Will: Could you talk just a little bit about people who want to check out your two books, we’ve go Social Selling and Smarketing, which was released recently, I think. Talk to us a little bit about your most recent book Smarketing.

Tim: The idea of the book Smarketing is, it’s called Smarketing Hacks to Achieve Competitive Advantage through Blended Sales and Marketing. It’s available on all Amazon platforms worldwide. What we’re seeing now in the companies that we’re transforming is that as sales digitally transformed, other departments have to transform with it. You can’t have a single department transforming in isolation. What we’ve seen, Adam Gray and Hugo Whicher who are my two coauthors. What we’ve seen out there is that there was a lot of articles about that sales and marketing should actually work closer together. Most of the articles were why sales and marketing departments should work together, but there wasn’t a how.

What we decided to do was right about the sales and marketing department of the future and how organizations get there. This isn’t about my journey or why this should happen though obviously, we need to provide some context in the first couple of chapters. This is a change program that your listeners can put in place to enable sales and marketing departments to an effect berg. Now, when this is not a takeover of sales by marketing or a takeover of marketing by sales, this is about how these organizations come together. It’s actually through my experience and Hugo’s experience of actually doing this, that we’ve actually come up with this. There’s lots of forms to fill in and diagrams and things to think about. Getting the compensation right, there’s even a chapter on the, what can go wrong, but it’s a practical guide about how sales and marketing can come closer together.

Will: Fantastic. You’re doing this work. Tell us a little bit more about the kind of clients that your firm works with, and the sort of key services that you provide.

Tim: Yes, so as an organization we do no outbound marketing. We do no cold calling. We do no advertising. We do know email marketing, and we don’t attend events because we don’t believe that they work anymore. What we do is we help organizations transform using social first department being in sales. Because, that’s usually the way that you can get a 30% revenue uplift by doing that. We don’t do any outbound marketing because why wouldn’t we? Because, we’re teaching people how not to use those techniques because they don’t work anymore.

What we do is, we teach organizations from small organizations to local organizations how to transform their sales team digitally. We also actually extend that out, and we also do marketing and human resources and customer service and procurement and finance. Ultimately, what you do is that you transform the whole of your business digitally through using social media. That’s social media external, social media like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and using internal social media like Slack or Yammer or Chatter or something like that. We run our business on social, we’ve total social organization, which is the ways that we obviously go out to tell our clients to be.

Will: Tim, a lot of the listeners of the show or are independent professionals or consultants who are running a boutique firm. As we come to the top of the hour here. Any final tips on business development and how do you use social for people that are independent consultants?

Tim: Yes. Be right people as a company, we have a capability worldwide through certain partners. The thing that you need to do, and I can’t stress this enough, is the three things which I talked about, which is the personal brand, to build network of contacts, and to use the content. Content can be used in so many amazing ways from one to many, one to few or one to one. You can write a blog, which is targeted at a single person within an organization, right through to creating a blog that goes out to create your market. There’s only eight people in the company, but we put out a unique piece of content every single day because that’s how we prospect. That’s one of the ways that the prospect.

Will: Fantastic. Tim, you were so generous to spend time to come on the show. I’ve learned a ton, and I’m going to take a shot at revising my LinkedIn profile based on some of your guidance and I’ll see what happens. I will include a link to your latest books in the show notes and a link to your firm. What’s the best place for people to go to find out more about your work?

Tim: If you want to get hold of me, the best place to go is my LinkedIn profile, which is Timothy Hughes with and Hughes is H-U-G-H-E-S or our website, which is social-experts.net or find me on Twitter. But, if you go onto LinkedIn you’ll find me. On both my two book Social Selling: Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers and Smarketing: How to Achieve Competitive Advantage Through Blended Sales and Marketing are both available on Amazon worldwide.

Will: Tim, thanks. That’s awesome. We’ll include those links in the show notes.

Tim: You’re welcome.

Will: Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Tim: Great to talk to you, Will.