Episode 224: Tineke Keesmaat on the connections between strategy, organizational change, and people leadership

HIGHLIGHTS

Will Bachman: Hello Tineke, welcome to the show.

Tineke Keesmaat: Thanks for having me, Will. I’m super excited to be here.

Will Bachman: So you are a legend among consultants in Canada among [inaudible] members who have told me about your work and I know that you recently just received an award for the top trusted advisor for I think for large scale companies. Tell me a little bit about that. That’s amazing. Congratulations. Tell me a little bit about how that award came about.

Tineke Keesmaat: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it’s pretty exciting. Essentially, there’s a group here in Canada called the MacKay Forum. They convene executives to learn and mentor each other. Some clients had heard about this award [inaudible] they were running this year and had suggested that I put my name in the hat. So I was very honored to be asked and then went through a process to get other clients to attest to the work I had done with them and then was selected from the group of nominees. So it was a great privilege and fun to be part of [inaudible] program.

Will Bachman: That is awesome. Congratulations.

Tineke Keesmaat: Thank you.

Will Bachman: Tell me a little bit about your work. I know that you work often with large companies on helping to go from strategy to implementation, working with leaders to actually implement the strategy. How do you communicate it to clients? I want to hear about that work.

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah, so the work that I do really does sit at this intersection of strategy and leadership. In today’s times where there’s so much coming at leaders and so much change about them, it’s a great opportunity to work with them to really anchor in on what does it mean for my company, what do I need to do to be successful in order to take the company forward? So really working with them, number one, I’m just getting really, really crystal clear around what should their strategy be in order to separate themselves from their competitors or to win.

A lot of that work that I do actually is less about the … you know, we do do the number crunching and all that part of the strategy, but it more starts with how do you actually get to a really clear story about your strategies so that people’s hearts and minds are won over by the strategy that you are actually articulating to them.

So that’s where the work really starts is how do we create a picture for where your company is going. As you know, there’s lots of great research out there right now about if people can find purpose at work, they’re far more likely to be committed, do discretionary work, stay longer, et cetera. So for me, the work with leaders really does start with you’ve got a big, bold ambition, how do we make it so that people share that ambition with you? So that for me is step one is just really getting the leader’s story straight and making it compelling. [inaudible]

Will Bachman: Can you give us an example of that and you know, sanitize it if you need to, but an example where you’ve come in and the story was confused or muddled and what the story looked like after you helped clarify it.

Tineke Keesmaat: Sure. I can actually, just … without giving names, I can talk about a client where they had this extraordinary strategy that they wanted to achieve. They were in the healthcare industry and a bunch of stuff has been changing. The work that they were doing or the intersection that they were doing in healthcare had to evolve. They’d done some really, really great work around what the strategy needed to be and really being bold about, “Hey, we need to take the organization and turn it upside down and come up with something special for us.”

When I arrived, frankly, the strategy was there on a piece of paper and it made sense and it had all the good IQ elements to a strategy, but it literally was a piece of paper. So the work that we did with the team was to really kind of get underneath and say, hey, what in this would be exciting for other people?What would this be scary? We actually created narrative. So literally, I know it’s old school, but we actually wrote out in prose for people to understand where is it that we’re heading? Why do we need to do this now? What will it look like when we get there? How are we going to get there? What is expected of me as a team member and what can I expect from my leaders to make this happen? The ability to work that through with the leaders so that the words were strong and powerful really helped them take that piece of paper into a narrative that people could understand and get excited about and see how they personally [inaudible] to that. So it was again going from a piece of paper that was rich from an intellect perspective, but perhaps lacking some of the emotional elements that are going to get people excited and motivated.

Will Bachman: Can you just say one more time? That was very powerful. What are those questions that that narrative should answer? Just go through that list one more time. I want to make sure we number, each one of those. Captured a few, but just go through that once more.

Tineke Keesmaat: Sure. Number one, where is it that we are going, what’s the vision for us? Two, why does this vision matter right now? What’s the context around it that is making it so important that we move towards this vision? Three, how are we going to get to that vision? It’s not going to happen overnight, but what are the steps that we’re going to take to get there. Four, what can I expect from leaders through this, what am I going to get, et cetera. Then five, what do leaders expect from me in achieving this vision?

Will Bachman: Say more about that last point. What leaders should expect from me? So does that mean that then that narrative needs to be kind of recast and restated by each of the leaders in the organization? So if you go one step, two steps, three steps down, people should be able to restate the strategy from their perspective?

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things that are in that statement. First, over and over again, when I see people go to execute strategy, they under-invest in understanding what parts of the culture need to evolve in order to support the strategy. I say evolve very deliberately because I think that companies are successful because of the culture they already have. If you want to preserve the things that are really important and working in the current culture. You want to extend where you need to in order to allow the organization to really map the strategy execution. So in that part of the chapter, we will outline, “Hey, here are the key from-to shifts from a cultural prospective, and here’s …” and again, we’d go one level deeper. It’s not just like, “Hey, engage more.” We actually get into what are the behaviors that we expect from each other around how we are going to make this strategy come to life.

So one that many people will have seen is we actually want to take more risks but take smart risk and here’s what that looks like. We want to move faster but smartly. So you get very, very clear around what the behaviors look like in that big strategic shift from a culture perspective. So then narrative goes into that but then through the execution, exactly where you are going, people need to be able to say, “What does this mean for me?” both from a “What work I need to do?” but then also where am I living the culture well today and where I personally need to behave differently in that.

So this work very much starts with that narrative at the top level that then needs to be supported with a rollout strategy from both a communications perspective where I’m sitting down with my leader and I’m saying, “Hey, do I get it? Do I understand it? What do I need to do? Blah, blah, blah, blah,” but then also you need to hardwire this into your performance management approach. So what objectives are set in the start of the year, you can see a direct line from your objective to his objective to the big company objectives. Then you are in conversation throughout the year saying, “Hey, are we on target individually and therefore are we on target collectively in getting closer to that vision?”

Will Bachman: Okay. So coming up with a clear, exciting narrative is one piece of this. What are the other lessons that you’ve learned about translating strategy into actual execution? What are some of the kind of some of the secret sauce that you bring to help leaders actually implement the strategies that develop?

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah, so we touched on culture, so for me, I kind of think of the execution in three Cs. One is Culture, which we’ve talked about a little bit.And this is one being very deliberate about defining what great looks like. This is building off of the Netflix work of the late 90s and you see many different versions of that now, but it’s like, hey, this is what it’s going to take to be successful here. Then too, in that, I think one of the great opportunities for leaders is they have to actually be living that culture in their day to day, so working to support leaders in making sure that they have the skills, the confidence, the abilities to be living that culture in their day to day, and frankly in some cases, being able to mirror back to them where they think they might be acting one way and where perhaps there is a bit of work for them to do.

So one, Culture; two, Capabilities. I think that you need to make sure that when you look at your strategy that it’s actually actionable and that people actually have the skills to get the job done. So we do a lot of work around is this where we’re going? You know, where do we have to be super awesome and let’s make sure that we’ve got super awesome people and skills in those roles. Where do we need to be good enough and let’s again pair talent with that, and where might be things that we don’t even need to be involved with where we can explore different relationships, partners, renting resources, et cetera. So there’s a whole bunch of work that is done on what capabilities are required.

Then in that capability piece, there’s like kind of the hard core capabilities of sales, marketing, functional, but then there’s a big piece of work that I think needs to happen these days around leadership capabilities as a whole. So are my leaders actually set up to drive through change? Do my leaders know what it takes to actually motivate people through change? Do my leaders have modern skills to actually execute in today’s environment? So under capabilities there’s kind of do a more functional base capabilities and then there’s hard core leadership capabilities.

Then the third thing for me is really around Communication. So I saw a report the other day that said, hey, leaders still rely on email. 90% of leaders still rely on email as their preferred communication channel. That’s just not good enough in today’s times. People need to get these messages multiple times, they need many different channels, they need targeted messaging. So if you think of all the awesome things that are done consumer perspective, we need to be kind of mirroring those in-house for our employees if we really want to get them excited, engaged in understanding what is required of them.

So we’ve been doing a lot of work around thinking through how do you get more targeted messaging out? How do you use data to inform and measure those? How do we think about moving beyond email? So it’s amazing how much technology exists within organizations and you just need to turn it on and use it differently. Then marrying that with just a lot more in person or face to face or video where you’re actually getting a personalized message. We’ve been using a podcast inside the organization, online chats, ask me anythings, leadership offsites, town halls, et cetera, to really get it so that leaders are talking directly to their team members more frequently about their strategies. So yeah, for me, the focus and execution really does center around culture, capabilities, and communications.

Will Bachman: Let’s talk a little bit more about that communication piece. I want to hear a bit more about some of these. You said internal podcast, what is this?

Tineke Keesmaat: So we have been playing with some success. Again, you kind of take your own hat, right? It’s hard to find time to read lots of stuff. I’m on the go, so I’m happy to listen to podcasts, you know, really comes to life to hear different people share, their stories, et cetera. So we’ve taken that same personal experience that people have with like opting into things in the outside, we said, “Well how come we can’t use that on the internal communications tactics?” So we’ve been doing a lot of experiments where we will do something very similar to what you’re doing with me today. So if there’s a strategy going on, and we’ll sit down and talk to a leader about that strategy and then we will curate it into a 10- or 15-minute podcast and then make that available to all team members. We’ve also been doing things where if we have a leadership offsite for say the top 10 or top 20 people, we will record parts of it and then we will take a two-hour session and crafted into a 10-, 15- minute podcast where all employees can get the highlights of what their leaders actually talked about in that session.

So what’s beautiful about that, it’s real time leaders in the moment of whatever it is they’re talking about, but then you’re curating it for the mass population and then we’re putting it … often the hardest part is just getting it available on internal systems so that people can access it on their own devices as they’re going to and from work. So we’re finding it an actually really efficient way to help leaders get their messages out. It doesn’t require a ton of extra work to make it happen and employees are finding it interesting to be able to hear these messages in a different format. And frankly, leaders are enjoying it because they just talk and they’re just themselves. It doesn’t require a lot of prep and they’re getting to experiment with a more modern way of communicating as well. So they’ve been real fun and really effective.

Will Bachman: Yeah, that’s very cool. I’m curious, on a practical level, how do you actually distribute an internal podcast that’s not on iTunes or open to the universe? How do you practically get that out to people?

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah, so sometimes it’ll just literally be on link onto wherever they store their files. On other cases, they will be able to actually host audio files on their internal websites. In other cases, we actually do use third party, like Vimeo [inaudible] actually host it. So we’ve worked in, in Tiana’s, I have a team that’s kind of more into the techno detailed, but we typically will just start with their technical people on the client’s [inaudible] and say “Hey, if here’s what we want to make happen, how do you make that happen?” In some cases, there’s been some limitations where they had to listen to it at their desks, they haven’t quite got to the mobile part yet, but people have figured it out. So yeah, it’s been cool.

Will Bachman: That is fascinating. Video as well, you’re kind of looking at ways to to get video out there?

Tineke Keesmaat: Totally. Same thing, we’ve been trying more and more. So for example, a couple of weeks ago we had a two-day offsite or, excuse me, a one-day offsite with a bunch of leaders and we said, “Hey, we’re going to have the top 60 people in a room. So we’re going to bring a video crew and we are going to just record a bunch of different snippets.” So for the top five leaders we said, “Hey, come prepared to talk about these things,” and we gave them each a topic. While they were in the room and on coffee breaks, et cetera, we pulled them over and we just recorded them from video perspective live. Then during the day, we actually took the rest of the 60 leaders and we said, “Hey, let’s just get you and your voice in about what the strategy is. So no prep, cold call, come on over,” and we recorded them live.

What’s fascinating was that the fact that they had a video camera looking at them, it sometimes took them a couple times to really understand, to articulate why the strategy mattered to them and to their team. But the act of actually having to personally articulate it really helped them to get their own stories crystallized. Then we were able to then take that footage and we created five small videos that had leaders talking about key parts of the strategy. Then we created a video montage of your 10 leaders talking about what that strategy meant for them and their teams and because it was done out of strategy offsite, they’ve got no prep work, we got everybody all at once. We then sent it over to our video crew. They were able to cut it and dice it and put some fun music and stuff in it, and within three days, we had six videos that could then be shared in the organization.

So then we put together a communication plan to kind of drip them into the organization. Some of them, we asked leaders to share in their team meetings and gave them questions and discussion questions. Other ones just went up onto the websites so that people got it twice. But again, it was a pretty efficient way to get a lot of leaders talking about that strategy and to get it out to people broader in the organization that goes over and above a simple email.

Will Bachman: Well, that’s amazing. It sounds very innovative use of these technologies to get the word kind of down the pyramid. Have you seen-

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah and [inaudible] people love it. They, you know, once they get over the initial shock of being online like on a podcast or a video, it’s actually just fun. To me, that’s part of what strategy should be. It should be about leaders kind of having fun and trying new things and growing and putting energy into this. Because if it doesn’t feel like those things, it’s just going to be a lot of hard work. A lot of our work is creating opportunities for people to really just try different things and grow themselves as an organization is growing, which is a lot of fun to see.

Will Bachman: Beyond these formats, what other things have you tried? It sounds like you’ve been very innovative, like text messages or social or what other sorts of ways have you explored of getting the word out?

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah, so [inaudible] we were starting to look more and more at text messages. We haven’t quite found the right technology because often too, we need to leverage what organizations have. We’ve been doing a lot with online polls, so PollEv is one that we use quite often, which as you … if we have a conference call going on with 40 people to give an update of a strategy, we’ll run PollEv in parallel so we can ask questions to engage people while they’re on our phone.

Will Bachman: I’m sorry, what’s that one called?

Tineke Keesmaat: It’s called PollEv, so P-O-L-L-E-V, it’s Poll Everywhere. And so this, anyone can access it on their phone or the web. So you just, at the start of the call you’re like, “Hey, sign into this app,” and then in the background you can put questions on. So if you know, we just heard speaker so-and-so talk about this part of our strategy, to what extent do you agree with what they said? How excited were you about this? What questions do you have?

We’re finding that a tool like that coupled with traditional conference calls take something that typically is one-way and magically makes it two-way for virtually no cost or effort. We’re finding that it’s just those little changes that take things and be more dynamic. That’s been a big tool for us. Again, it’s something that if we’re not there, the teams can use themselves, which is amazing because again, you don’t … you know, I think it’s about building capability and exposing people to things that are available to them. So that’s been great. We haven’t had, we haven’t spent as much time, we have still hadn’t unlocked kind of, there’s all these internal social elements on existing websites, et cetera.

We haven’t had as much luck with those yet. We haven’t actually explored them yet, but we have had luck with online chats. It’s a bit of a take on the IBM values jam from years ago where you basically schedule leaders to be on their computers and you put questions out and then leaders answer them. But everybody can be sitting at their desk talking back and forth. So it’s like a collective text message or WhatsApp message that is happening at a set organization. So it’s a fast way to get feedback across multiple time zones, et cetera, et cetera. That’s actually been a really nice way to engage people broadly.

Then finally, honestly, it’s a funny thing to say, but we’ve been having a lot of success with two more traditional things. One is just really curating, here’s what you need to know now and sending out … rather than send out a random email, putting some structure around the email, putting it, it’s again not too dissimilar to your Wednesday updates. People would expect that on Tuesday mornings, every leader is going to get a note that says here’s what you need to do this week as a leader. Don’t forget, this week is your performance management time. We had these two updates from a strategy perspective. Yay, us! This message is not going as well in the organization, so please double down on it.

But rather than send 15 emails, curating it into one with very specific actions, that has been hugely successful. Then we’ve also gone old school. We’ve really hardwired in, particularly at the leadership level [inaudible] which involves real time in the room looking each other in the eyes around the strategy. Your top team, we’re typically spending one day a month on it and then each quarter, two days, and then we’ve done for like top 60, once a quarter in a room. Here’s how we’re doing on our strategy. Here’s a deep dive on a strategic topic that we are chasing, AI, whatever it is, something we need people to be more informed about. Then for the whole organization, doing more structured town halls as well. So weirdly, a couple of traditional things with a bent on them seem to be really creating momentum in organizations.

Will Bachman: Could we go back to bucket number two, capabilities?

Tineke Keesmaat: Yeah.

Will Bachman: Could you give some more examples of what would some specific examples be of a capability that you would identify? Then once you’ve identified there’s a gap, does your firm, are you kind of the one-stop shop for capability building? Or would you go out and you would source a great, you know, sales training firm or something.? Talk about both examples of the capabilities as well as then how do you help clients address those gaps?

Tineke Keesmaat: For sure. So in identifying the capabilities, so an example, right now, a client of mine is super innovative and has been very enthralled by all the focus data, data analyze, AI, et cetera. The conversation we’ve been in is like, what does that actually mean for your organization? Data for what purpose? If we can get really clear about here’s how that capability is going to help our strategy and what it needs to look like, you can then take a broad idea and say okay, this will be a competitive advantage for us and therefore here’s what that needs to look like for us. Because I think I’ve been in too many conversations where it’s like, “Hey, data is important. Let’s go hire a data scientist and call it a day.” But it’s taking the capability in the context of the strategy and really getting clear around what is the scope of that work, how is it going to contribute to our strategy. But then also getting really clear around like, look, is this worth it, or actually better just to partner with somebody externally to do for us for a period of time because it’s episodic or we just need to jumpstart on it. Is this something that we need to really build a team on? What does it actually look like? How do you make it come to life in your organization? So we will really get clear around what is it that is needed for our strategy in our context from the capabilities and are we [inaudible] on it?

You’ve probably seen the work from McKinsey that shows about 20% of roles [inaudible] of the impact to organization. So we spent a lot of time saying what are those value driving roles in the organization and how do they need to change or what do they need to look like in the context of the strategy.

A lot of this work is done in conversations with the leaders. We will pull in external research or experts to say, “Hey, in this particular area, the organization needs some new ideas so let’s talk to some people who know this awesomely well.” So we’ll pull on different networks to get the right people, pressure testing what we think the capability is.

Then the second part of your question, do we fill the gap? I would say it depends on the capability gap. Typically we don’t … we’re small so we can’t be building every capability gap. I think particularly on these really important capability gaps, you need true experts in them so I think by framing up here’s what it needs to look like, does it need to be in-house or out of house, and then kind of what would be the strategy to fill. Based on that, we then hand that off to the clients to work their natural channels to kind of fill.

The one exception I would say, we’ve been spending more and more time on the second bucket of capabilities that I talked about earlier, which is leadership capabilities. We’ve been spending time with leaders to say okay, given our strategy and given the set of leaders that we’ve built, where do we have gaps on core leadership capabilities? We’ve been spending more time thinking through how do you upgrade leadership capabilities across. Because if I reflect, I think that leaders today are operating in a different environment than the environment in which they grew up. A lot of leaders sitting in seats today didn’t grow up in an environment where Twittering was happening and where social media was so important. They grew up without having to think about communication in those mechanisms but now they’re having to lead in an environment where that becomes important. A lot of leaders grew up in a world where, you know, we had a strategy, we could afford to take, have a five-year plan against it, we can take a very long cycle project management edge to it. Now we are leading in a context where frankly we are in more of a sprint mentality, more agile execution, et cetera, but I’m being asked to lead something that I may not have grown up in.

To me, there’s just a bit of how do we help modernize leadership skills and capabilities? So we’ve been spending more time getting clear for a company’s particular strategy or a particular suite of leaders in the organization where are there some broad-based leadership capabilities that we can help refresh, modernize, and upgrade. In those cases, we have been working on some leadership interventions. Again, our team can do parts of it, but we’ll also then partner with other organizations, internal houses, et cetera, to say who’s best serviced to actually deliver this part of the leadership program, but we’ve been architecting what that might actually look like.

Will Bachman: Let’s talk about trust for a moment. You were, as we mentioned earlier, you’re declared the top trusted advisor in Canada. What are your advice, experience, tips around building trust with clients?

Tineke Keesmaat: Good question. You know, to me there’s a big piece of starting by just understanding that here’s our people and with that nobody is perfect, right? So there’s a big piece of just accepting leaders for who they are and having some very honest conversation about strengths and where are they got gaps, et cetera. But if you just kind of start from a place of, “Hey, you’re a person, I’m a person. We both have strengths, we both have gaps and we’re just going to accept each other as human beings.” To me, that is a great starting place. So it’s really investing in the whole person and showing that you care about them as a whole person. To me, that’s step number one is just establishing that person-to-person relationship.

Then I think, you know, a second thing for me is just really being in it with them, right? So doing what you say you’re going to deliver, being bold and courageous where you might need to give them feedback that others haven’t had the opportunity to give them or comfortable giving it to them by giving it to them in the spirit of, “Hey, I want you to be super successful so let me talk to you through this. This is what I’m seeing, I’m observing, but then let’s talk about how that’s sitting with you and what you want to do about it, if anything, about it.” That’s the second piece is just really kind of in it with them and showing that you’re committed to their growth and kind of having the courage to have those conversations with them.

Yeah, and I think it’s also just being a human being yourself. So showing humility, putting your own ego aside and just, yeah, just engaging with them as human beings because that’s what they are. Being a leader is heart and you’re not going to get it right 100% of the time and so the more that you can just have their back when they need it and push them when they need to push, need a little bit of push, the more I think you’re just going to get into a good solid, trust-based relationship.

Will Bachman: You’ve been remarkably successful, Tineka, in building an amazing reputation, and as you mentioned, as a boutique firm, getting very well known and people tell me that you always have projects happening. What do you do on the business development side?

Tineke Keesmaat: [inaudible] because I have stayed relatively boutique. I have a three-year-old son, so a couple of years ago I kind of became more measured with my time. From a BD perspective specifically, because I haven’t been trying to fill a pipeline to feed 500 employees, I’ve been able to be a bit more measured or reflective. But number one, I just really concentrate on when I have clients, I do good work. I go over and above to make sure that they feel support. I think you can ask my clients, but I believe you just have to deliver the work that you have in front of you over and above what you think you need to do to make sure that they’re having an amazing experience with you. That’s been my business development. All of my work has come through relationships of clients that I’ve worked with before, my colleagues who’ve been super generous from McKinsey, my Ivy alumni network.

It’s just been those relationships and the, you know, this committment to doing good work. I don’t get it right all the time, but to me that … for me, I’ve been super fortunate and I know can’t count on that forever, but just the relationships and the people that I’ve worked with in the past have been super generous with their referrals and their time to help me and my firm be successful.

I started to get a bit more experimental exploring different kind of more traditional brand and marketing, but that’s less about BD and it’s been more about intellectual stimulation for myself. But so far I’ve been so fortunate and so grateful for the people in my network that have just helped to support me and the firm in our our fun and wild journey.

Will Bachman: Can you say more? You said you’re getting more experimental. Can you just share a little bit more about what you’re doing?

Tineke Keesmaat: Things like … I’ve been exploring like, “Hey, could you actually have enough material and stories that I have that I could write a book?” Or you know, “Where can I start to speak at conferences or go and tell a story for myself?” So a bit of brand building that I’ve been really reticent to do in the past. It’s stepping more into that and a lot of it came from a mentor when I was exploring whether or not to continue with my own firm this year. He had said, “What’s something that’s missing for you?” And for me, part of that, probably what [inaudible] was the intellectual stimulation that you would get from a larger firm where there’s always things to be researched, always articles to be written, always new projects to kind of initiate over and above your client work. So I’ve been trying to create more space, some time to depth for my own personal growth. That’s been fun to make time for that and to kind of grow as a person as well in my own journey. So yeah, it’s been fun.

Will Bachman: Could you share the story of the name of your firm and how you came up with it?

Tineke Keesmaat: Sure thing. Tiltco, when I was a young girl, my dad experimented with his own company, a house building company. He called it Piltco, which was my mom’s name, his name, and then my sister and I’s name. Then flash forward, I was thinking about a company. I was like, “Hey, that’d be an interesting nod to that.” So just brainstorm, I substituted the P for my other sister’s name, Tricia. And I is my dad’s name and my brother’s name so I kept those two. So I got to Tiltco. Then when I came down to [inaudible] that’s awesome because it’s not only a nod to the family, which is very important to me, but it also gets into tilting company performance. So this movement and forward motion that tilt kind of expresses to me. It had the double meeting which I thought was wonderful.

Will Bachman: Where is the best place for people that want to find out more about your firm, where’s the best place for them to go?

Tineke Keesmaat: Sure. They can reach out on our … check at our URL. So T-I-L-T-C-O, dot, C-A.

Will Bachman: Okay, so tiltco.ca. We will include that link in the show notes. On that note, Tineka, it has been fabulous having you on the show. Really cool to hear about your framework of the three Cs — culture, capabilities, and communication, explore that a bit. So great to connect and hear about your work.

Tineke Keesmaat: Well, thank you so much for having me and congratulations for all the work that you’ve been doing. I know it’s interesting to hear these podcasts that you’ve been creating, so thank you for that.